Curse

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 21, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Ah, to add to the horrendously LARGE pool of Paladin wannabes out there...
I figured, hey, why not? Maybe I can build a smart warrior/monk?

Since I like conditions so much, this will be another conditions engine designed to kill the enemy eventually and make him somewhat tricky to counter. He won't have any interrupt skills since this build is going to be a sword build without disrupting slice... [oh yeah ^_^]

stats:

7+1 str
10+2 swordsmanship
10 protection prayers
9 healing prayers

Hamstring
Sever Artery
Gash
Sprint
Victory is Mine!
Mend Ailment/Condition
Remove Hex
Restore Life

As a note, I've seen quite a few W/Mo SAVE a fallen team literally by just carrying that single res skill so I'm leaving in Restore Life. Since this build feeds its energy and a tiny bit of healing through ViM!, it should always have a nicely stacked energy pool. I chucked Rebirth for Restore Life and moved the stats accordingly since Restore brings ya back with a lot more hp/energy so at least you have a better fighting chance.

You can laugh if you wish but I've never made a W/Mo before and am wondering what's your thoughts on such a build?

Remember, this is NOT meant for heavy damage. Only to dump conditions quickly and kill through just slicing/swinging. For some reason, people think only heavy hitting skills will kill players and forget that just swinging with 12 weapon mastery can do the job.

This build sacrifices extra damage dealt by making up for a warrior's most obvious weaknesses, hexes + conditions. This warrior if played properly should never have to worry about his dps dropping due to an affliction of any sort. At 5 energy per hex/condition removal [according to this site], it should be just fine. In fact, all of the skills except for Hamstring and Restore Life cost 5 energy.

This I could call it a "Juggernaut" build because, like said term, no hex or condition can stop him from doing his job effectively. Since almost all the skills are 5 energy, he should have no problem with his energy management and Victory is Mine! just makes it that much easier for him to work.

Your thoughts?

Btw, with such a diverse stat spread, you can also put up modifed versions of this Juggernaut as well! ^_^

kungfumonkey2 · Jun 21, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Looks good to me, a sensible W/Mo build. Now if you could just get your message out to the 5 Billion other W/mo out there.

Rajamic · Jun 21, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Looks to me that you boosted Healing Prayers up to 9 and are only using it for Restore Life.

Why not replace Restore Life with Resurrect, move those points into Smiting, and replace...I don't know, Sprint probably, with Judge's Insight. You'll be boosting your damage a pretty good chunk and all it will cost you is Sprint and making your res spell a bit less effective under combat situations.

RaK · Jun 21, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Rebirth is somewhat better, it has less cast time.

Kishin · Jun 21, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

I second the suggestion to incorporate Smiting Prayers. This build is very scattered at the moment You're not really an offensive Juggernaut in the sense that you're not dealing maximum potential damage. You'd be better off running Strength of Honor/Judge's Insight (or both, though maintaining the second with the 1 energy regen having the first enchant up gives you may be difficult) and then focusing on damaging Axe skills like Penetrating Blow, Cleave/Eviscerate, etc. al

Its nice that you're bringing a lot of condition removals and rezzes, but you're really more of a utility tool than a damage dealer. Those are a lot of slots you could be using to maximize your damage potential (and therefore, your usefulness as a warrior). Furthermore, the conditions you cause are going to get removed fairly quickly, so that's not the best route to take for an offense focused warrior. ViM is not bad, but the health gain is not that helpful since no one's targetting you (You're a Warrior) and you don't have anything to do with the extra energy except spam more condition removal. An Executioner's Strike to the face of a caster for 130+ is worth a lot more.

My suggestion: Keep the rezz, maybe the hex removal. Drop the rest, go Smiting, get some damage skills and an attack speed boost in there, and go to town.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 21, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajamic

Looks to me that you boosted Healing Prayers up to 9 and are only using it for Restore Life.

Why not replace Restore Life with Resurrect, move those points into Smiting, and replace...I don't know, Sprint probably, with Judge's Insight. You'll be boosting your damage a pretty good chunk and all it will cost you is Sprint and making your res spell a bit less effective under combat situations.

I really should start posting this more often with any W/X build I make... I know wholeheartedly that a warrior's damage is some of the easier to negate damage in the game...

The reason I make conditions engines is that:

1) conditions last a LOT longer than damage will
2) conditions make targets easier to kill without high damage skills
3) conditions feed Victory is Mine! which heals AND gives u energy
4) Victory's real reason for existing in this build is to give you energy but you can switch out one of the monk stats for 9+1 Tactics to make Victory is mine give you 149 hp should u land all your conditions on one player next to you.

If you want to boost damage, then by all means post your High Damage Juggernaut build here! I NEED TO SEE IT!!!

However, the moment you remove the Mend/Remove Hex skills, you've just lost the "Juggernaut" part of the build because then this Warrior will be frought with bleeding, blind, weakness, imagined burden, crippled, the works... He'll be an easy target to just walk away from and ignore till the end of the match.

Being a W/Mo, there's A VERY good chance the enemy will ignore you and much to their chagrin, they'll be crippled, bleeding, and deep wounded before they realize what YOUR REAL job is in the battle ^_^.

Now that I think about it, it'd be VERY interesting to see this W/Mo build fight my previous W/N build. Both are very deadly conditions engines... hmm... ^_^

edit*

I forgot to answer your question on restore life. Ressurect brings your party member back with very little hp/mp resources. Restore Life with THIS MUCH in healing prayers brings back a nearly fully functional teammate.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 21, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

I second the suggestion to incorporate Smiting Prayers. This build is very scattered at the moment You're not really an offensive Juggernaut in the sense that you're not dealing maximum potential damage. You'd be better off running Strength of Honor/Judge's Insight (or both, though maintaining the second with the 1 energy regen having the first enchant up gives you may be difficult) and then focusing on damaging Axe skills like Penetrating Blow, Cleave/Eviscerate, etc. al

Its nice that you're bringing a lot of condition removals and rezzes, but you're really more of a utility tool than a damage dealer. Those are a lot of slots you could be using to maximize your damage potential (and therefore, your usefulness as a warrior). Furthermore, the conditions you cause are going to get removed fairly quickly, so that's not the best route to take for an offense focused warrior. ViM is not bad, but the health gain is not that helpful since no one's targetting you (You're a Warrior) and you don't have anything to do with the extra energy except spam more condition removal. An Executioner's Strike to the face of a caster for 130+ is worth a lot more.

My suggestion: Keep the rezz, maybe the hex removal. Drop the rest, go Smiting, get some damage skills and an attack speed boost in there, and go to town.

Please post your modified build of this please!!!!

I made this build not to do damage. If you ONLY think a useful warrior is one that does damage then I guess you think the only useful Ele is one that uses air magic.

To remove a condition, 3 things have to occur.

1) the enemy/enemy monk has to notice it right away [forecast it maybe]
2) bring a condition healer skill, one less pure heal on their skill bar
3) for this build to utilize it, Victory is Mine has to be done before the condition is removed, a fairly simple task.

Conditions hamper an enemy's ability to do something. I'm not saying damage is bad. Heck I made a high damage warrior build myself and you can find it here on the forums, however to say this is a useless warrior could be your undoing. What are you going to do to warrior that can't be stopped through hex or condition?

Ward of etc! Stance!

Fine, I'll just move onto someone else or wait for it to wear off. I know that people don't solo in this game but I made this warrior to be able to be a tool for victory on my team and not a burden. People keep forgetting that Victory is Mine gives back energy. Energy which WILL be used to keep this warrior on the buttocks of an unfortunate shmuck who will be bleeding and crippled and deep wounded repeatedly. Heck, if a teammate of mine decides to cast Fragility on my foe, I'm one happy camper.

But please, don't diss the build cause it doesn't create huge spikes in damage, instead, post your full build here so I can learn as well from it! ^_^

Think about it, you're not the only damage dealer on your team. This build is designed to complement your teammates. "He does no damage!" you say? Well, with his 12 weapon mastery crits and his ability to make you bleed and cripple, I don't see him as being useless at all. No weakness or faintheartedness can stop you from doing your damage since well, high damage builds get neutered by such skills. This isn't a pathetically weak build. Understand its role. I'm glad you guys are putting suggestions out here and I hope that more W/Mo will read this thread. I'm learning a lot from this myself ^_^

rii · Jun 21, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaK

Rebirth is somewhat better, it has less cast time.

yes, but it also disables their skills for a minimum of 4 seconds. a death is effectively somone who cant use skills (put simply). by using rebirth, yes their alive, but their just as useless whilst up and running. so 6 second casting time +4 seconds (minimum remember) = 10 seconds. Restore life brings them back in 8 with more health and energy. Im fairly convinced rebirth is the worst res on the game.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 22, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Good point rii ^_^ I'm glad now that I made that switch.

Neo-LD · Jun 22, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I made this build not to do damage.

But you do realize the title of the thread is "offensive juggernaut"

btw, what exactly changed with final thrust that not many want to use it? Seems like it used to be all the rage just a couple weeks ago.

Kishin · Jun 22, 2005, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Please post your modified build of this please!!!!

I made this build not to do damage. If you ONLY think a useful warrior is one that does damage then I guess you think the only useful Ele is one that uses air magic.

To remove a condition, 3 things have to occur.

1) the enemy/enemy monk has to notice it right away [forecast it maybe]
2) bring a condition healer skill, one less pure heal on their skill bar
3) for this build to utilize it, Victory is Mine has to be done before the condition is removed, a fairly simple task.

Conditions hamper an enemy's ability to do something. I'm not saying damage is bad. Heck I made a high damage warrior build myself and you can find it here on the forums, however to say this is a useless warrior could be your undoing. What are you going to do to warrior that can't be stopped through hex or condition?

Ward of etc! Stance!

Fine, I'll just move onto someone else or wait for it to wear off. I know that people don't solo in this game but I made this warrior to be able to be a tool for victory on my team and not a burden. People keep forgetting that Victory is Mine gives back energy. Energy which WILL be used to keep this warrior on the buttocks of an unfortunate shmuck who will be bleeding and crippled and deep wounded repeatedly. Heck, if a teammate of mine decides to cast Fragility on my foe, I'm one happy camper.

But please, don't diss the build cause it doesn't create huge spikes in damage, instead, post your full build here so I can learn as well from it! ^_^

Think about it, you're not the only damage dealer on your team. This build is designed to complement your teammates. "He does no damage!" you say? Well, with his 12 weapon mastery crits and his ability to make you bleed and cripple, I don't see him as being useless at all. No weakness or faintheartedness can stop you from doing your damage since well, high damage builds get neutered by such skills. This isn't a pathetically weak build. Understand its role. I'm glad you guys are putting suggestions out here and I hope that more W/Mo will read this thread. I'm learning a lot from this myself ^_^

The primary purpose of a warrior is to do damage, considering about 75% of their skills are bent toward that end. Second of all, you misread me.

What I was commenting on is the fact that you called it an Offensive Juggernaut when it really isn't, because it's doing average to below average damage for a Warrior. Its got no real boosts to its attack other than Sever/Gash. You're using Victory is Mine to power what...Sprint? And condition removal? You could at least throw in Pure Strike (An energy based sword attack) for more damage. Its not doing you much good.

All this build can really do is run around removing conditions and chasing after a target, where it is not nearly as effective as it could be at damaging said target. It will not pose a significant threat and thereby be ignored, and then dealt with at the end of the combat. In fact, its low energy and energy regen don't even make it a good condition remover. It can be shut down in that department fairly easily.

Also, Monk condition heals don't take away from their healing capacity, really, considering both Mend Ailment and Condition heal as much if not more than Orison with good Divine Favor (and even more with greater Protection Prayers). If anything, its just as good as 5 energy heal as it is for condition removal.

A Warrior should be generating as much sustained DPS as possible, ideally, to be an offensive force. This build really isn't focussed on anything, or displaying any sort of real purpose other than to sustain itself as a minor annoyance.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 22, 2005, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Isn't energy denial a problem for any warrior? I say Offensive not in terms of damage but in terms of...

Bah, why do I even bother, people seem to have one point of view I guess...

I run an axe wielding condition build that has no high dmg axe skills in it whatsoever. And yet I'm dropping casters like bad habits. At first I thought it was due to crappy skill on the caster's part but then I realized that I think I'm just getting better at locking out the right skills with Disrupting Chop.

A warrior WITHOUT high damage WILL KILL enemies. Instead of boosting on a strength, which is warrior damage, why not make up for a weakness? Which is condition and hex affliction?

Ignore a Warrior/Monk that can't be stopped? I love casting Enfeeble on W/Mo in pvp all the time. Faintheartedness, etc. Too damn easy to stop a warrior with just 5 energy minimum.

Now that you mention it, the fact that mend/etc. heals means the warrior needs less dependency on his healer. But still, this warrior can't be stopped. Will you ignore this warrior should your teammate be nailed with Weaken Armor and Barbs? What if he's nailed with Fragility?

Is this warrior useless? By himself, so are you and any class you make as well!

Any class in this game is useless in pvp by just itself...

With a smart team, this warrior will behave much like a sniper's assist. The trick is his team's monk won't care if he's got that color change in his hp bar due to condition or hex. All his team's monk needs to do is heal him.

Also, I'd like to point out that NOT ALL team's I've fought ignore the warrior altogether at the start of a fight. For someone to assume that all warriors are ignored at the beginning of a fight is total shit. More frequently then not, as a warrior player myself, I've been targeted for conditions and hexes quite readily by enemy teams as I approach. Traps go off, etc. I'm a warrior so charging in with teammates CLOSE behind me isn't absurd. I'm body blocked as well. I've helped teammates easily by casting enfeeble on enemy warriors and then disrupting chop the enemy's mend condition.

Before you continue bashing my build...

You should think about this...

Warrior does 300 dps. Is suddenly neutered by hex/condition that friendly monk has to divert time and resources to. If monk isn't quick on the fly, which is sometimes the case, that 300 dps is about a good 3 dps for maybe 20+ seconds...

Warrior does about 20-40 dps. Gets afflicted. Heals with mend and remove hex. Continues swinging. Afflicted again, removes affliction. Enemy keeps trying to afflict one who is nearly immune. Where's all that affliction time coming from? Time spent dealing damage to YOUR teammates.

If your dps is so high and you get nullified for only 10s. That's 10s. more time the enemy has to ignore you.

If your dps is low and unstoppable wouldn't the outcome be the same or better? That's what makes this game so good, many different outcomes and possibilities.

To say a warrior is useless if he can't do massive damage to me, I can say a massive damage warrior is useless with the right hex.

What's even sadder is when people bash on warriors by saying:

Blind
Weakness

Move on...

That makes a warrior with high dps sound so pathetic really.

"ALWAYS RELY ON YOUR MONK!!" What? He can heal you and only you? He doesn't have 7 other teammates to worry about? Or himself?

Again, I'm not against high damage warrior, I really am not. But bashing a warrior that goes around making situations worse for the enemy isn't fair to the poor guy.

"I'm just a low damage warrior! I'm sorry I don't do damage, it's just that this enemy is blind, that one's poisoned, he's crippled, that one's weakened, and this one's bleeding. I'm sorry if I'm not doing my job..." - Plague Touch warrior being bashed...

Well, to modify this build. I suppose you can chuck the high energy hamstring and Victory is Mine! for attack and damage skills. That's 2 skills that work with conditions to skills that put the hurt on. Take out Hamstring and Victory is Mine! for... 2 high dmg adrenal skills. Save that energy.

That means you can go with sever artery, gash, galrath slash, final thrust. A classic combo.

Ok, how 'bout this for all you picky 'MUST DO DMG' warriors?

str: 7+1
Swordsmanship: 10+2
Protection Prayers: 10
Healing Prayers: 9

[goal, make up for weaknesses vs. enhancing strengths]

Sever Artery
Gash
Galrath Slash / {E} Warrior's Endurance
Final Thrust
Sprint / {E} Battle Rage
Mend Condition
Remove Hex
Restore Life

Hmm... I suppose chucking Final Thrust or Galrath Slash [I'd probably chuck Galrath since all you OTHER people just want highest damage imaginable]

I know, let's put that elite in here... ^_^ OR this one!

With Warrior's Endurance, you can use the energy to feed your sprint [don't ask] and keep those pesky hexes/conditions off you that the enemy WILL WANT to keep feeding you... Since now you hit like the devil himself and can't be stopped by any means. [bottom line: you lose a chunk of damage, but your energy will be high and you'll be VERY hard to stop.]

With Battle Rage instead of Sprint, you get your speed boost [with the potential to be infinite since Battle Rage can be recycled just before it ends] and you keep Galrath Slash keeping your damage at an all time high... You will run out of energy removing anything that they stick to ya but hey, at least your not stopped dead in your tracks eh? [bottom line: extreme damage and near infinite running time. But if they're consistent with hexing/conditioning you, your Battle Rage won't last and energy runs out.]

HOLY CRAP... This is a SCARY build to look at...

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 22, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

There you have it, my offensive juggernaut for the high dps picky people

Hmm, before I hear any more discussion...

Let me ask something. How many anti-conditions skills does a monk with common sense usually carry? 1? I'm 99% certain usually 1.

How many healing skills/dmg reduction do monk classes carry? A LOT more than 1.

Having high DPS is easy to counter with multiple heals. By skill locking the lone condition remover, that monk without help from his teammate monk your team has successfully jumped on and ripped, he'll be crippled for 20s. or so. I speak this in terms of axe use true, but I suppose throwing in Savage Slash in place of Galrath Slash or Final Thrust can REALLY put the hurt on that monk trying to heal/mend himself.

I hope this helps! ^_^

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 22, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

/cheer
/roar

^_^

Ok, well let's hope that this build is as good in text as it is in gameplay ^_^. Thing is, I'm not sure I want to change my W/N into a W/Mo to test it, though I'm tempted to try.

Should I not like this W/Mo build, due to problems finding the skills I need or what not, can I switch back to W/N and keep all my previous necro skills without having to hunt them down?

I'm pretty much changing from Death Knight to Paladin to Death Knight again if I don't like being the "Knight in shining armor".

Kishin · Jun 22, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

If between 3 monks, a condition lasts 20 seconds, then your team has bad Monks, especially since the Protector isn't constantly healing. If only one monk on your team has condition removal, your team build needs work.

Conditions rarely, if ever, run close to their full duration against a competent team, because Condition healing is stupidly spammable.

Mend Ailment is as good as an Orison, is spammable, and kills a condition. You keep not realizing that both condition remover skills double as decent 5 point heals. Its only the Monk hex removal spells that dont provide for additional healing.

I'm glad you bring up Disrupting Chop, and I honestly don't know why you didn't include it sooner.

The second build is better than the first, but I think you should lower Healing Prayers enough so that you can get 12+4 Swordsmanship. After all, you're only using Restore Life. Its not an extreme amount of damage, but it is more significant than it was before, while still keeping your original desire for self-sufficiency.

On your other dilemma, I personally think W/Ns are more fun than W/Mos, but that's just my preference.

Try it with a PvP char, if you've unlocked the Monk stuff you need.

Myodato · Jun 22, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

The only real reason to use Mend Ailment/Condition over Purge Conditions (which requires no attribute points) is recharge time. Seeing as a Warrior doesn't have the energy to spam cast, I would take Purge and hope my Monk can help me out in between as necessary. Consider taking Martyr as your elite, and you can help the rest of the team out too.

You now have no need for attribute points in Protection Prayers.

Sure Restore Life is nice (though I think Rebirth is more useful), but it isn't worth attribute points in Healing just to cast a res.

You now have no need for attribute points in Healing Prayers.

Do yourself a favour, and realise that Smiting rocks. Swap Remove Hex for Smite Hex, and take along Judge's insight. Increase your damage and cover your weaknesses.

I play as a primary monk, and I much prefer Wa/Mo's who smite rather than try to 'help' me.

Kishin · Jun 22, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myodato

Do yourself a favour, and realise that Smiting rocks. Swap Remove Hex for Smite Hex, and take along Judge's insight. Increase your damage and cover your weaknesses.

I play as a primary monk, and I much prefer Wa/Mo's who smite rather than try to 'help' me.

This man speaks with great wisdom. (P.S. You can stack Strength of Honor on top of that if you don't mind having 1 pip of energy regen)

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 23, 2005, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Smite Hex with Mend Condition. Most impressive...

I must be very unlucky because every team I've ever fought ended up with monks whose mend capabilities were shut down by my mesmer teammates and suddenly, everyone on the enemy team was diseased and bleeding and blind and who knows...?

2 mesmers eat 3 monks. If all are on similar skill levels...

Ishamael Sedai · Jun 23, 2005, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

/cheer
/roar

^_^

Ok, well let's hope that this build is as good in text as it is in gameplay ^_^. Thing is, I'm not sure I want to change my W/N into a W/Mo to test it, though I'm tempted to try.

Should I not like this W/Mo build, due to problems finding the skills I need or what not, can I switch back to W/N and keep all my previous necro skills without having to hunt them down?

I'm pretty much changing from Death Knight to Paladin to Death Knight again if I don't like being the "Knight in shining armor".

you can switch back and forth without losing skills as many times as you like. please try this build and let us know how you did 4 on 4 and 8 on 8. it actually might not be too bad for 4 on 4, but you are just tapping people and will be ignored in the tombs and even against some 4 on 4 teams. why not build a monk that does condition and hex removal where at least your healing someone with divine favor?

Guillotine · Jun 23, 2005, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Yukito Kunisaki: Enough posting and go outside. Thanks.